tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post2626679109837318848..comments2023-10-21T16:25:58.899+01:00Comments on Three Score Years And Ten: Once More - Beyond Our KenHarry Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-54152751948278819872019-12-01T14:45:43.128+00:002019-12-01T14:45:43.128+00:00My blog has been running for over 13 years and the...My blog has been running for over 13 years and the above is its most viewed item. Yet only two people have entered into discussions with me via my comment box on this matter. I appreciate that many of those who have visited this item will not have a blog facility - as it is rather old hat. But it can be obtained without the people concerned then having to set up their own full blog. I just wonder who has looked at it and what they felt about my analysis. Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-76084945940943867672018-05-25T23:02:38.480+01:002018-05-25T23:02:38.480+01:00Then Ernie, details of the internal charges agains...Then Ernie, details of the internal charges against Labour Party members for being said to express anti-semitic views are important. For when they are then revealed as being either trivial or false this destroys such accusations. Fake news can best be destroyed by facts.Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-77704905246228591812018-05-25T20:56:23.743+01:002018-05-25T20:56:23.743+01:00Palestinian, Ibrahim Abu Thurayeh, 29, double ampu...Palestinian, Ibrahim Abu Thurayeh, 29, double amputee, shot in the head by Israeli sniper. <br />Eight-month-old Leila al-Ghandour killed by Isreali tear gas. <br /> <br />In the past week, 60 Palestinians shot dead by Israeli snipers, women and children included. 2,800 wounded, many with horrific injuries. And the silence from the Livingston & Corbyn critics is deafening. <br /> <br />From my perspective Corbyn’s Labour accusers are political hypocrites with an agenda and peculiar sense of priorities. People who oppose free speech, who throw accusations about like confetti, who get into bed with the tory press and would have us believe that their value judgments and load noise, equals fact. <br /><br />In reality its fake news and political bullying.<br />Ernie Jacqueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17293949799376038393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-41395606990285713592018-05-25T18:36:35.965+01:002018-05-25T18:36:35.965+01:00Hi Ernie. I feel that politics is much more comple...Hi Ernie. I feel that politics is much more complex than your comment indicates. It is possible to be a friend of the oppressed Palestinian people and to appreciate why prominent Palestinian bodies such as Hamas emerged, without agreeing with some of that bodies tactics. Yet we can still criticise over-reactions to them by the Israeli authorities.<br /><br />Then whilst Blair and Mandelson can be subject to a wide range of criticisms, they did help to deliver the Belfast Agreement.<br /><br />When people condemn Livingstone and Corbyn in the way you suggest, then clearly this is unacceptable. But what if some critics genuinely feel that the stances of the two (and or others) have at times been done in an anti-semitic fashion ? Surely we can at least ask them to provide evidence. Then if this is forthcoming we can seek to check it out. This is what I have being attempting with Jim Denham and (elsewhere) others. <br /><br />I would also like to know what the cases are claimed to be against some other 80 members of the Labour Party who are facing explusion on grounds of claimed anti-semitism. It is dificult to make judgements without the claimed evidence. Then will the "facts" in general be so inaccurate, that the general thrust of the accusations will prove to be unacceptable? <br /><br />If there is just "name calling and juvenile politics" we can only properly determine this based on the facts. Evidence both for and against the 80 or so, should be made available to members of the Labour Party to allow them to assess the situation. The quicker this is done the better, so that we can move on.Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-48907190753307969042018-05-24T16:20:12.257+01:002018-05-24T16:20:12.257+01:00Hello Jim. As Wittgeinstein pointed out, words do ...Hello Jim. As Wittgeinstein pointed out, words do not always have exact and precise meanings for they may be used in rather differing ways in different circumstances. They then have no more than what he called a "family resemblance". This seems to me to be the case with the use of words such as Zionist, Jewish and Isreali. For instance, there are complicating factors, such as that there are people living in Isreal who are not of Jewish decent but indentify themselves as Arabs or even Palestinians.<br /><br />This means that when Ken has discussions with bodies such as the Labour London Jewish supporters, there was a big need for everyone to clarify what they were claiming. Otherwise there is a danger of Ken and others using words in a point scoring way. So for instance, like Ken I am an atheist. But I may well differ from him in my attitude to religions. If a person's religious commitment enables them to show compassion and concern for people generally, then I find that to be something that is very worthwhile. For instance, I appreciate what is said in the "Talmud" when it states "Thou shalt not say,'I will love the wise, but the unwise I will hate", but thou shalt love all mankind". <br /><br />Ken and the rest of us need to try to appreciate the complexities of the use of words. So the term "Jews" can be used in different circumstances to refer a religious, ethnic or social grouping - and is, unfortuneately used by some as a term of abuse. We need to sort out how the term is being used during any conversation, both to understand each other and to reveal any genunine areas of disagreement.<br /><br />Then with Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi who wrote and said so much, we need to be clear as to what is clearly unacceptable and what is more reasonable. We are then in a better position to judge the rights and wrongs of Ken's analysis when he comes to Yusuf's defence. For what was Ken actually defending ? And then as with his Ken's use of the term "Transfer Agreement", was it another ill thought-out interpretation which called for clarification and correction ?<br /><br />It is possible for us to try and correct people without always dismissing them from Labour Party Membership. Otherwise we might end up rather isolated and looking like their mirror image.Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-74056506903096104372018-05-24T09:04:57.929+01:002018-05-24T09:04:57.929+01:00Another example of Livingstone's Jew-baiting: ...Another example of Livingstone's Jew-baiting: his meeting with London Jewish Labour supporters in March 2012. Here's their (edited) account of what happened, in a letter to Ed Milband:<br /><br /><br />Dear Ed,<br /><br />On the 1st of March 2012 a substantial number of Labour-supporting members of the Jewish community met Ken Livingstone at a private meeting in order to explore ways in which Ken could re-connect with Jewish voters [...]<br /><br /><br />A key focus of the discussion centred on Ken’s discourse when discussing Zionism. It is not an uncontroversial thing to say that for the vast majority of British Jews, Israel plays an important part in their core identity, in the same way that family, language and cultural ties continue to bind BAME (Black, Asian and minority ethnic) communities with India, Pakistan etc.<br /><br />This is certainly a conversation that has taken place with Ken on numerous occasions. Ken determines Jews as a religious group but does not accept Jews as an ethnicity and a people, and did not respond on this other than to say as an atheist he found this hard to comprehend.<br /><br />In the same way that Black, Irish, Women and LGBT groups are afforded the right to determine their own identity, many of us feel that Ken doesn’t afford Jews that right...<br /><br />At various points in the discussion Ken used the words Zionist, Jewish and Israeli, interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner. These words are not interchangeable and to do so is highly offensive, particularly when repeated over and again as was done. For example, when discussing Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi’s extreme views on homosexuality, Ken said “one would expect the same views on homosexuality from extreme Christians, Muslims and Israelis” and using the word “Zionist” as an adjectival negative to criticise much more widely than what can be attributed to the ideology of Zionism. He also stated “I am not against Israel, I am against Zionists”, which we also find impossible.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />When challenged over whether it had been appropriate to publicly embrace an individual (Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi) who holds racist, misogynistic and homophobic views, in addition to his justification for suicide bombings in Israel, Ken again reinforced his view that al-Qaradawi is a moderate voice to be engaged, and that he was encouraged to do so. Ken stated that as al-Qaradawi was not advocating suicide bombings in the UK, and as he had apparently been the victim of a smear campaign by the British press, Ken would gladly embrace him as he would anyone being attacked by the Murdoch empire. Given the scenario of hugging Nick Griffin, Ken quickly backed off this comment.<br /><br />Ken, towards the end of the meeting, stated that he did not expect the Jewish community to vote Labour as votes for the left are inversely proportional to wealth levels, and suggested that as the Jewish community is rich, we simply wouldn’t vote for him. When we pointed to research undertaken by the Institute of Jewish Policy Research that demonstrates the Jewish community in the UK has a propensity to vote much more radically than its wealth, and this is attributed to Jewish values and sociology and history and also alluded to Democrats in the USA, Ken begrudgingly accepted this.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />Whilst we do feel somewhat despondent that we are covering the same arguments and reaching the same conclusions as we have done before, we do feel that it is now more important than ever, given the closeness of this election, given the election’s significance to the Party nationally, and to the growing unease amongst Jewish Labour voters, its time to resolve the matter once and for all...<br /><br /><br /><br />Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01642992463679646250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-37426084699112039362018-05-23T14:57:46.718+01:002018-05-23T14:57:46.718+01:00I am always willing to live and learn, but the onl...I am always willing to live and learn, but the only two claims I am aware of for which Ken Livingstone is said to be involved in Jew-baiting are (a) his defective interpretation of the deal between the Nazis and Zionists in 1933 and (b) the case of Oliver Finegold which you drew to my attention. Then can you give me an example of antisemitism which is not racists ? If people criticise actions such as the establishment of the State of Isreal, its later expansion, recent actions taken against militant protests from Gaza; then does it not depend as to how these views are being expressed? They can be done in ways which are (1) clearly racist and anti-semitic - claiming that these things are wrong because they were done by Jewish people, or (2) that they are wrong for other non antisemitic reasons - even though you might reject these arguments. But all criticisms of Isreal can not be condemned as being anti-semitic, even though some will fall into that category and you might suspect that certain critics are really hiding their anti-semitism from view. Surely, by itself seeking to convert Jews to Christianity (or to other religions, agnositism or atheism) is not in itself anti-semitic - although it could be used as a device to undermine those with strong Jewish loyalities. But numbers of Jews already belong to other religions or to none. Surely, that does not make them any less Jewish. Although many people of mixed lineage might be difficult to categorise.Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-39366617371224313522018-05-23T10:17:40.620+01:002018-05-23T10:17:40.620+01:00He has a long record of Jew-baiting, as the articl...He has a long record of Jew-baiting, as the article I've linked to shows. Not all antisemites, of course, are racists: in fact, pre-Nazi Christian antisemitism manifested itself though a professed "love" of Jews (ie hoping to convert them) just as contemporary "left" anti-Semitism merely wants Jews to renounce Zionism and denounce Israel. Livingstone, however, goes further and seems to actively enjoy provoking, insulting and upsetting Jews. I suspect he learned this from his close association in the 1980s with Gerry Healy and the WRP.Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01642992463679646250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-74211652384343318972018-05-22T11:45:22.196+01:002018-05-22T11:45:22.196+01:00Well Jim, the item you point me to overwhelmingly ...Well Jim, the item you point me to overwhelmingly deals with the single case of an incident involving Oliver Finegold. As with Ken's comment on Hitler, it was ill thought out and should later have been corrected by him. But if Ken is anti-semitic would this not be something which would have come across clearly in his 709 page autobiography where the index is littered with references to topics such as anti-semitism, Jewish community, Isreal, Zionism and the Board of the Deputies of British Jews ? <br /> I say this without being a great supporter of Ken. Whilst in the Socialist Campaign Group I voted against him seeking nominations to stand for the leadership of the Labour Party and then refused to nominate him. Back in 2000 I wrote to the Times condeming support he had given to the IRA. Then when he was expelled from the Labour Party for standing against Labour's nominee for London Mayor, I opposed his early re-entry which enabled him to stand as Labour's candidate in the following election for Mayor.<br /> But I do not see him as racist in any way, although I accept that many may disagree with lines he has taken on the nature and operations of Isreal. But we can all criticise specific trends within differing nations without thereby taking up racist stances. Harry Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01600933854461096745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31588679.post-48766849564196453452018-05-22T09:57:42.591+01:002018-05-22T09:57:42.591+01:00No evidence that Livingstone is an anti-Semite? I&...No evidence that Livingstone is an anti-Semite? I'd say there's quite a bit: https://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/livingstones-thing-about-jews/Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01642992463679646250noreply@blogger.com